Carolyn is also featured on the second episode of Uningrained’s first season, which investigates whether it makes sense to treat softball as baseball for girls.

In the first episode we introduced an invisible idea (we treat softball as baseball for girls) with consequences (it boxes women out of the National Pastime).

In this latest episode, we introduce what I hope will be an Uningrained staple: taking a trip back in time to figure out how and why things got to be the way they are. In many cases, we assume ingrained elements of our culture are logical because they’re so familiar. But often history shows us a process that’s much more human, full of coincidence and surprising influences. Knowing that history can help us decide whether an ingrained idea is worth reevaluating.

This was a fun episode to report, both because I learned a ton of fascinating, unexpected stuff, and also because it was an absolute delight to interview Victoria Jackson, Carolyn King Lewis, Jennifer Ring and Jan Todd.

I mentioned in the episode that Jan and Victoria are star athletes.

• Jan’s USA Powerlifting Hall of Fame page includes details on her legendary career. Here’s a 2025 New York Times profile of Jan, and a video of her receiving a lifetime achievement award from Arnold Schwarzenegger.

• Here’s a 2006 interview with Victoria, during her elite running days.

Interviews provided much of the material for this episode, but I also drew from several other sources.

Three books informed the discussion of the Little League lawsuits (and Little League, generally):

• Stolen Bases: Why American Girls Don’t Play Baseball, by Jennifer Ring

• Play Ball! The Story of Little League Baseball, by Lance and Robin Van Auken

• Female Gladiators, by Sarah K. Fields

And a Movie. For more about Carolyn King Lewis, check out the 2017 documentary film The Girl In Centerfield, which not only tells Carolyn’s story, but also goes deep into the perspectives and experiences of her Ypsilanti teammates.

Other sources: Here’s a great article on the 1928 Olympic Women’s 800 meter race. I got the tidbit about former Ypsilanti Mayor George Goodman’s grandfather playing in the Negro Leagues from a 2023 oral history interview he did with Eastern Michigan University researchers Lisa Jasnowski and Matt Jones. Fun fact: Goodman remains friends with Carolyn. I pulled stats on the football credentials of mid-20^th century high-school PE leaders from a 2010 article that Jack Berryman published in Current Sports Medicine Reports called Exercise is Medicine: A Historical Perspective.

If you haven’t listened yet, please do!

I also wanted to share a few notes and resources that informed the story.

First, the Interviews. The beginning montage featured two youth players interviewed at the 2025 Baseball For All “Nationals” tournament in Sparks, Nevada, near Reno. The clips of Beth Greenwood and Justine Siegal also came from interviews at Nationals. My family went to the tournament in part so my daughter could play in the tournament, and in part so I could be there as a reporter. We had a great experience in both respects, and were stunned by the high level of baseball on display. (Semi-local recommendation: we ate at the Great Basin Brewing Company in Sparks at least four times that week. We kept talking about mixing it up, but when you’ve found a place everyone loves …)

Rachel Gansner, my friend and the founder of the Warren Park Girls Baseball League in Chicago, joined me for the interviews with Carey Schueler (in person), and Ila Borders, Morgan Zerkle and Jennifer Ring (online). I also interviewed Bill Savage in person and Amira Hondras online.

A few other resources that informed this episode:

• Ila Borders’ autobiography Making My Pitch: A Woman’s Baseball Odyssey, cowritten with Jean Hastings Ardell

• Peter Levine’s biography of A.G. Spalding, A.G. Spalding and the Rise of Baseball

• Jennifer Ring’s book Stolen Bases

• Spalding’s own book, Base Ball: America’s National Game 1839-1915 (There’s a section in the episode where I read a few lines from the book. I had a great time playing with Soundtoys’ Little AlterBoy audio plugin to make my voice sound a bit more like a 1910 orator.)

• I referenced a bunch of baseball movies during the episode. A League Of Their Own, of course … but my two other favs from that era are The Natural and Field of Dreams.